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The Democrats think that American business is sick of shouldering the benefit costs for workers health care and is only too happy to have the government take over the burden. |
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American business added health care as an incentive to attract the employees they wanted. Unions have pushed too far and forced the exodus of entire industries. They were corrupted by powere as everyone is. We would be better served as a nation to have no single payer system just because the lack of competition is a recipe for abuse and fraud as well as suffocating innovation. It's going to be a rough couple years, but the pendulum will swing back. |
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Sorry, busting out the socialism boogy man just doesn't work anymore. Sorry, you lose. |
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O has a deep admiration for Europe, so he concludes that since the Europeans have the inefficient, costliest "health care," so should we!
Our hope is 2010! |
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Europe and we are ranked #37 in the world. Look, you need to get facts to back up your claims. The more you conservatives dummies continue to deny reality, the longer you will be out of power. |
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"since Europeans have the inefficient, costliest "health care," so should we!"
But our health care system is already much more expensive and less effective than any of those in Europe. Do you not know that, or are you just pretending ignorance?
If our system were more like those in Europe, it would cost less and do a better job. |
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Michelle Bachman is almost as crazy as crazy Ann Coultier or Michelle Malkin... and that is pretty crazy.
We need more of people like Michelle Bachmann and Alan Keyes on the Tele'. Seriously everytime either of them open their mouth and go on T.V. is just pure entertainment.
Please do not stop being you Michelle. You are wacked out of your mind with your ideas but I am fascinated to watch you implode everytime you put those thoughts of yours into the public spectacle! |
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Govt health care will be more costly and less effective than it is now. Gov't has the anti-midas touch. Everything it touches turns to caca.
And why is that? No accountability. The consumer has no leverage to keep it efficient and effective. Are there problems now? Yes.
Well they get worse under govt control? You bet.
Don't compare the US to Europe. We are huge, with a hugely diverse population. I visited Alberta, CA. They have their own provincial health care. I guess is works.
However, there is about one person per sq. mile in Alberta; Probably way less. They are an extremely wealthy (and healthy) province.
Come to CA and see what you have to look forward to under Obama. It's YOU that's living in la-la land. |
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Perhaps you can explain why in the UK, surgery for gall bladder trouble (stones erupting from the gall bladder) is only scheduled after the eruption?
Or in France, gastric bypass is considered "cosmetic" if the patient is ONLY 300 pounds!
Germany, ectopic pregnancies are only terminated when the organ can no longer sustain the embryo!
Yes, very efficient! And so cost-effective too! |
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"If our system were more like those in Europe, it would cost less and do a better job."
Can you give us stats please?
Also, if this is true, why is it that the British are forced to pulling their own teeth? Don't believe it? Here you go:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1566241/Sufferers-pu ll-out-teeth-due-to-lack-of-dentists.html
Btw: If we got rid of all of the insurance industry lobbyists in DC, our health care costs would come down to an affordable level. Yeah, I know you lefties think the government can solve all of our problems though dontcha? |
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Canada? Not quite, I have a friend who's mother needed abdominal surgery (cancer), she came to WA state for the surgery as she had to WAIT 3 months for the Canadian surgery and she was in too much pain. |
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KG apologies for "who's" should read "whose" |
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"Perhaps you can explain why in the UK, surgery for gall bladder trouble (stones erupting from the gall bladder) is only scheduled after the eruption?"
We spend about TIMES AS MUCH for health care as the UK per capita.
Or in France, gastric bypass is considered "cosmetic" if the patient is ONLY 300 pounds!
Germany, ectopic pregnancies are only terminated when the organ can no longer sustain the embryo! |
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(I know you're not going to believe this, but my cat walked over my keyboard and somehow submitted that comment. Sorry.)
"Perhaps you can explain why in the UK, surgery for gall bladder trouble (stones erupting from the gall bladder) is only scheduled after the eruption?"
We spend about TWO AND A HALF TIMES AS MUCH for health care as the UK per capita. They've chosen to spend much less money and get somewhat less care.
"Or in France, gastric bypass is considered "cosmetic" if the patient is ONLY 300 pounds!"
That's true here also, at least for a friend of ours and his insurance company. He was told the cut-off was 325 pounds.
In college I wrestled a lot of very healthy guys who weighed 300 pounds.
"Germany, ectopic pregnancies are only terminated when the organ can no longer sustain the embryo!"
But, but ... it's an abortion! |
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however, I've visited/lived in several countries with UHC. The natives both laud and cuss their medical care.
One country with what seems good UHC is Spain. My daughter-in-law is a Spanish doctor with her own practice; however, to keep her licenses, she must work a set number of hours in a government-run hospital as low wages. It seems to work. Can anybody see THAT getting past the AMA? |
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Republicans in Washington need to stop trying to play nice with Obama...He is exactly what he said he was on the campaign trail--A LEFT WING LIBERAL....The house and senate repubs seem to want to blame everything on Reid and Pelosi and let him off the hook..What's the deal???..He is the one that said to the House during the stimulus debate, "I won" sooo bascially "I get to do what I want"...If he had not wanted the SPENDING PORKAPALOOZA BILL then he DID NOT HAVE TO SIGN IT...he could have vetoed it...That is exactly what he wanted and he is implementing the EXACT agenda that he PROMISED on the campaign trail...Republicans in the house and senate have to start shouting this out...We can't do this for them..They are the only ones that know what is going on...PLEASE...get in front of the television cameras, go on any t.v. show that wants you, actually solicite interviews with any news organization that will talk to you, go on ALL the talk radio shows Limbaugh, Hannity, Ingrahm, Levin, Wilkow etc....DO NOT LET THE DEMOCRATS SET THE AGENDA FOR YOU...That has been the republican problem for many years...DO NOT TRUST OBAMA OR THE DEMOCRATS...THEY WANT TO DESTROY THE G.O.P.... |
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Population of the US: 303,824,640 (July 08)
Population of Canada: 33,212,696 (July 08)
Population of UK: 60,943,912
Now if we subtract the populatiions of Canada and the UK (combined) the US still has 209,668,032 more people within her borders.
Reality check here, where in the world would we ever get enough money to provide QUALITY universal health care for the people of this country?
Bob and Larry, we will wait for your answers! |
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"Can you give us stats please?"
Here are some good charts showing the relationship between spending and life expectancy in a bunch of countries (second and third graphs).
http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/spend.php
It's pretty obvious that we in the US are being robbed blind of our health care money. |
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A right-wing congresswoman writes: "I have no reason to believe that when the Democrats’ health care plans are revealed, the end result will be greater federal involvement."
Read it again.
Now, if and when the government puts a national health care system in place, I have absolutely no doubt that there will be greater federal involvement. But Michelle Bachmann says she has "no reason to believe" the same. |
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"the US still has 209,668,032 more people within her borders. ... where in the world would we ever get enough money to provide QUALITY universal health care for the people of this country?"
We have 3.2 times as many people as Canada and the UK combined.
We have 3.5 times the gross domestic product (money) as Canada and the UK combined.
That's where we get the money.
And it's not a matter of "getting" the money; we're already spending A LOT MORE than they are. |
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"And it's not a matter of "getting" the money; we're already spending A LOT MORE than they are."
That is the most logical statement you have made here in a while. Thank you for that.
As far as our GDP though, it is shrinking by the day and that is a reality that must be taken into consideration before any more spending on anything is mandated. |
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I wondered!
UK---you pay less for less
France---I had a colleague who weighed 290 and her Insurance paid for the gb. Differing insurance plans, I guess.
Germany---no that is not considered so much abortion as therapeutic surgery, the embryo would not be viable and if the organ collapsed there is very serious danger to the mother. |
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I took a delightful trip to Tuscany last summer with a group of friends. While walking around an old castle, one of our group slipped on some gravel and sprained her ankle badly. We took her to a hospital in Siena where she had an X-ray and later an MRI. She was seen by an intern, a radiologist, and an orthopedist. After several hours, as we were leaving, we asked where to pay the bill. They laughed and said, "You're in Italy. There is no bill."
Tell me again about how those evil socialists want to make us all slaves. |
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In Mass he saw that Mass was already spending as much or money on health care by treating the uninsured for free. He got the best brains in a room. It seemed simple. Have the state subsidize health insurance. Voila! Everyone, including the poor had affordable insurance.
I confess I haven't read much lately re: the Mass plan. However, I believe it's been a bust. Why? Because of the human nature factor. If people can get something for "free," they will.
The same thing happened last year in Hawaii. They instituted universal health care for children. The program went broke in SEVEN MONTHS.
Why?
Because even those kids whose parents were previously providing health care, got on the "free" program. It was...dah-tah (remember this word forever)..."unsustainable."
Government health care (paid for with tax $$) is unsustainabale. Just like Cacafornia, which is being taken down by unsustainable nanny-state mandates and govt workers' unions.
They have killed the Golden Goose that once sustained the Golden State.
Our business employs about 50 people. We provide primo health care, but there is a monthy charge to the employee of $40 for families.
Rather than pay the $40, they opt the children out and sign them up for "free" care at Cacafornia's Healthy Family Program.
I've heard that nationwide nearly 50% of families are on WIC: (Women/Infants/Children food program). WIC advertises for new "clients" in Tijuana. They are all about loading up their roles in order to lard up their fiefdoms.
It was announced last week that 30% of our illegals are on welfare. Whether or not govt run health care works in Europe or Canada is irrelevant.
It will not work here. Unsustainable. We are already broke. |
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...not roles.
BTW: we are getting rolled by BO and his ridiculous nanny state promises.
Perhaps socialized med works great in Spain, Italy or Sweden. They probably do not have a seditary, obese, diabetic, drug-addicted, spoiled rotten population. |
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A member of my family is a medical doctor who takes Medicare patients. The red tape and regs are impossible. But the worst part: they are over $300,000 behind in their payments to this particular clinic!
How is the goverment going to provide universal care when it cannot pay for Medicare for a few people?
Libs needs to get their heads out of a place that hasn't seen the light of day for a while. |
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One question I would ask anyone who supports socialized medecine - If socialized medicine is so great and equal or on par with our medicine how come anytime a rich foreigner needs a life saving surgery they come to America? I have yet to hear a story of a rich American traveling to Europe, Canada or Cuba to get a life saving procedure. |
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I think that the GOP will run into a wall on healthcare reform, given that more Americans are hurting and dealing with vastly sub-par healthcare. Even your own Party is seeing a defection on standing firm against so-called 'socialist' healthcare.
The 20-year-old 'playbook' fantasy we're seeing with the retro-Republicans, complete with the resurrection of Newt Gingrich-style obstructionism is a path towards permanent irrelevance. Personally, I hope so, given the kind of GOP we have now in place. |
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fyi: personal income tax rate for Italy
low end: 23% + .9% + .1%=24%
high end: 43% + 1.4% + .8%=45.2%
US
low end 10%
high end 35%
Could that be the reason your friend received such wonderful treatment?
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I believe the tax rate is actually higher in Italy than you quoted. There is a huge "black" economy in Italy. (You might be right because I haven't lived in Italy for several years -- might have changed the tax code.)
My Italian neighbor once asked if he could use one of my spare bedrooms, for a week or two. He didn't want to sleep in it -- he wanted to store his NEW furniture because he expected the annual visit from the tax collector. The collector would have increased his tax rate because of him having new furniture. He owned an electric company and said his tax rate was already terrible.
Same with the ragged looking buildings in Italy. The tax rate is lower until the construction is completed, so the Italians rarely finish construction -- rebar sticking out everywhere, for years and years.
I don't know the tax rate in Spain, but my son pays fifty percent or better. Forget exactly what he told me he paid, but that is about right. |
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"Could that be the reason your friend received such wonderful treatment?"
Well, I have no idea. She's not an Italian taxpayer, for one thing. For another, her own health insurance provider was never billed for an X-ray, an MRI, and three separate medical consults. So you could say, I suppose, that the Italian taxpayers are underwriting American businesses.
Moreoever, like most grownups, I'm aware that when a service is provided, somebody, somewhere is paying for it.
In this case, though, nobody got any richer because my friend received medical attention (with the possible exception of American insurance company). Do you think health care is something that some people are entitled to make a profit from?
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We offer the best bet for superior health care for rich foreigners BECAUSE we do not have universal EQUAL care for everyone.
Look guys. Once you have universal care, you have equal care--everybody's going to have the same rationed, mediocre care. Even now everybody wants the very best treatment for themselves and their loved ones. If there's "some cure" out there, however costly and dicey, they sue their HMO to get it. They think they deserve the best and they are darned well going to get it.
That will all go away under universal care.
BO (among others) claim health care is a right.
That's nutz. It cannot happen. Sure, it would be terrific. We all want everything perfect for everyone. Right now we do have different levels of care.
You can show up at an emergency room and get your ankle worked on if you slip on the gravel. However, you cannot necessarily get millions of $$ worth of the best care available for some serious disease if you can't have insurance or your provider refuses.
Once care is severely rationed, we will go down a frightening road, we'll all be in that boat: government telling when and what can be done. The greatest medical expenses go to the elderly in the last two years of life.
This is fiscally impractical. People after a certain age or whose condition is statistically dire, will need to be made comfortable (morphine), but denied expensive and probably futile procedures.
If people believe the "government" ie taxpayers can provide primo care for every single person who has one foot inside our borders, they are insane should have their voting rights rescinded.
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I agree with you 100%. Socialized medicine is a terrible idea. To put in terms even the most ignorant liberal might understand, right now we have the best healthcare for about 85% of the population. For the other 15% that are not insured it is still pretty good. Socialized medicine would create lousy healthcare for all. Liberals for years have been crying about a healthcare crisis, there is none. Nobody is ever turned away in an emergency room. |
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I surmise by your name you're either a Russian or a vampire.
Absolutely there should be a profit motive in health care. Why is a doctor any difference than a farmer. We all need to eat.
That's the way it works: People go medical school, rack up all kinds of debt, sacrifice like hell--for what? To serve humanity and live in a hut?
Drugs companies, medical supply companies are in it for the profit and we are the beneficiares.
I know in the USSR, a job you like is a "right." It was in their constitution. The US Constitution provides for no such right,--and rightly so (no pun intended.)
BO, in a radio interview some years ago, declared the US Constitution to be inadequate because it provded for political rights but not "economic equality."
But not to worry, he declared. The Congress could step in, make laws and "fix" the Constitution.
If the Pubs do nothing but obstruct all this very foreign, dangerous and unconstitutional nonsense, more power to 'em.
You are obviously a commie bloodsucker and should go back to Vladivostok--ASAP. And take all the people who believe they deserve a handout with you. |
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Here's something you reality-deniers need to come to grips with. Right now, our borders are OPEN. I live 15 miles from the MX border. There are millions flooding in. Well, some going back since our economy is so bad.
In 1994 CA voted for Prop 187: No government perks for illegals. Of course, the 9th Circuit shot us down ASAP. Anybody with one foot on this side of the border is entitled to EVERY Constitutional protection and perk that citizens are.
If the state provides education for citizens, it must be provided for illegals. Illegals get in-state tuition breaks. Once there is universal healthcare, it must be provided for EVERY person who can get to the US.
Currently uninsured illegals are treated in clinics and emergency rooms. I'm not certain if they can get free elective surgery, chemo for cancer, etc. But we will be required to give them every treatment available to citizens once BO has his way.
US taxpayers will be paying for everybody from Alberta to Punta Arenas, Chile. It will not be merely the occasional clumsy tourist who slips on gravel.
One might ask why BO will give amesty and citizenship to millions of illegals any day now if they are entitled to all the perks of citizenship.
Because.....currently they cannot legally vote. That's the only thing, as far as I know, they are denied. Once BO gets them amnesty, that will not be a problem. They can all vote for BO's 3rd, 4th and 5th terms.
Everybody: Start now practicing your irregular Spanish verbs in the pluperfect subjunctive. |
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Excellent posts. I was wondering because I forgot the exact numbers, how many hospitals in CA have been forced to close due to overwhelming illegal alien care that is never paid for.
The number 84 keeps popping into my mind, but please correct me if I am wrong.
This is yet another reason why we cannot have universal health care in the states.
Thanks K.G. |
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While our health system needs an overhaul, free health care for all is too costly. Instead of the elderly having access to life saving treatments, the deciders will opt to save limited money and expertise assistance and will offer it instead to the younger citizens etc,. Imagine, what will happn if immigration isn't controlled and medical facilities don't keep up with the hoards of people who will take advantage of free medical help, when no real need is there. They will think twice if it cost them their money. The bottom line is that a Universal health system will become overwhelmed like in other countrys! We need the long lines and rationed medical care like we need a hole in our heads! God help America |
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I do not know the answer to your question re: hospital closings.
I do know the whole state is overwhelmed. The schools are overwhelmed. The neighborhoods are overwhelmed with drug gangs. CA has a 47 BILLION (with a B) shortfall, which they are attempting to bridge with massive tax hikes. Bean counters tell us if illegals went home, we could balance our budget.
40% of high schools student in a high school near me are on free school lunch. The school is begging the state for mo' money.
It would be interesting to see how many of these "kids" have cell phones, ipods, tattooes, and $200 tennis shoes.
I say send the illegals packing, have half-day school (this is what we did back in the 70's budget crunch), send the teens out to pick lettuce and pay for their own dang lunch.
Personal responsibility. My mother mopped floors during the Depression for 10 cents an hour. She was 10 years old. You know what? She lived to be 90 years old. She was loving, compassionate, hard-working and productive her whole life.
Mopping floors did not hurt her a bit. And she survived 90 years w/o taking a free lunch from anyone. |
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Do you know anything about what the British call "National Insurance"?
If not do some research and then find out just how much the Brits actually pay for their supposedly "free" health care.
I am betting not one person on this thread has ever been in a European hospital, or lived in a European country long enough to experience this supposedly wonderful universaal health care.
Not one of you has a clue what you are talking about. NOT ONE OF YOU.
And before you ask...yes I have - 36 years experience of European health care. Health care in the UK is a joke. Ask anyone there - they'll tell you how bad it is.
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"Do you know anything about what the British call "National Insurance"?"
Yes.
"I am betting not one person on this thread has ever been in a European hospital, or lived in a European country long enough to experience this supposedly wonderful universaal health care."
I lived in Europe for eight years, in London for two. I experienced the medical system, including hospitalization, in several countries -- the UK, Norway, Singapore.
Norway and Singapore make us look like primitive, uncivilized chumps in health care. They are about as far ahead of the US as we are ahead of some African nations.
"Health care in the UK is a joke."
Some of it is, yes. A friend of mine is on a Queen's Commission to figure out how they managed to screw up their attempt to implement a medical records system so badly.
However, my point is that we spend TWO AND A HALF TIMES AS MUCH per capita on health care as the UK does. Despite that, and despite the lousy service you often get, their life expectancy, infant survival, etc. are a bit better than ours. They are getting a whole lot more health care for their money than we are.
Your argument, if one can call it that, is that you get what you pay for. True for Brits, not true for us. |
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